Welsh forestry charges 2017

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Eeyore
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Eeyore » Sat Jan 07, 2017 22:09

Chris G wrote: There is a lot I could say about the way this NRW - Rally4Wales agreement has been made, but this is a public forum so I will keep my mouth shut, however the smell is overpowering.
Can somebody prove me wrong, please? But I have a feeling the only people R4W were trying to support with their petitions and efforts was R4W. The whole thing smacks of 'vested interested' (I've seen it happen before with land management).

I'd love to be wrong, but like Chris, I smell a large rodent.

....and I don't mean a Coypu.
Nic

Marches 17
I suffer from ADOSS: Attention Deficit oooooo something shiny!

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Songasport
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Songasport » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:25

From a rallying point of view R4W has been a success, rather than their charges going up to around £1,400 per mile (NRW was proposing a 100% increase) they're going to pay £698+ VAT. The as yet unknown question is has this been achieved through shafting the non-rally users of the land? Their vague "similar vehicles doing similar damage" statement doesn't answer the question. In my view comp safari cars do nowhere near the amount of damage but is that the view of R4W? I know BCCC cars have tested at the Ceen's forest so perhaps they have actually properly measured the damage and we've nothing to worry about? You'd think though, if that was the case then R4W would've informed someone what charge comp safari will be paying which I gather hasn't happened - Lilian certainly wasn't aware and it's her that pays the bills!

If it is the case that they're going to charge the same as the rally rate then we'd have been better off with the original NRW proposal, ~£430 per mile for Cat 1 rather than £698+VAT.

Has anyone been in touch with Mr Bennett Evans yet?! I wonder if he'd like to put on a couple of BCCC rounds and a hill rally?

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Songasport
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Songasport » Mon Jan 09, 2017 0:30

With figures like this it's a wonder any club wants to take on the financial risk of putting on an event :shock:

"As part of the organising team, it was a very difficult decision to cancel the event. Especially with the amount of work that had already gone into the planning of the event. As a rough idea we already had the Rally Guide, Draft Regs, Roadbook and Mapbook all in draft version, ready for final checking. Along with the ongoing work on the Safety Manual and so on, this gives an idea in the amount of work undertaken so far.
At our club meeting, we had to consider the financial viability of running the event, especially bearing in mind that the 2016 event made quite a loss (around £7000). A big part of an forest event's outgoings is the cost of the forestry itself. For 2016, we used 34.73 miles of first usage and 33.34 miles of subsequent usage. Based on the charges of £683 and £405 per mile and plus the fee for CRoW, the total was £37,724.69.
Looking at the planned route for the 2017 event, we we going to run 4 stages with a total of 44.79 miles and for the full event run each stage twice. The charges for road repair from R4W we were informed would be £698 and £414 + VAT, making the charges £837.60 and £496.80. With the increase in mileage, along with the CRoW (and also the £500 to the MSA, which used to be a deposit on the forestry charge, but I believe is now an 'admin charge') the grand total is £60,769.18 or an increase of £23,044.49.
Given these charges, along with the costs of Rescue, Recovery, Stage furniture, Permit charges (£70.30 per car for over 45 stage miles and £46.15 for under), Championship registration fees and so on, there is a very large outlay. To be able to make up these extra costs, the entry fee had to increase quite substantially. The problem is that increasing the entry fee, tends to reduce the number of entries and as we had no idea of how many crews we could expect (BRC had yet to open their championship entries and there were no championship regulations released as of yet) the club committee decided that the risk of the club making a large loss was too much of a risk.
Apologies for the rather long post, but as various rumours have been bandied about, I would rather state the facts from our side.
Wayne Jones
Assistant CoC & Secretary Mid Wales Stages 2017"

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Chris G
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Chris G » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:27

I think the NADMC shot themselves in the foot trying to run an addition 10 miles over last year.

This would cost 10 x 837 and 10x 496 which gives around £13,000 extra.

The land charges are much the same as last year, however the additional VAT element is the killer.

The NADMC is the first, I am sure it will not be the last, many events may not wish to take the risk with possible losses in the thousands.
Chris Gibson.

John Griffiths
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by John Griffiths » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:35

There seems to be also the issue of who pays the VAT on these repair charges.

As for the non-NRW venues, I doubt that they too will be looking carefully at their charges and making a suitable revision...upwards. There might also have more events moving to these venues so might struggle to get dates.

I guess that the old argument that the cross-country championships are only a few Land Rovers/4x4s driving about in the forests and playing in the mud can't continue when a number of the cars are as quick, if not quicker than stage rally cars. Nice photographs of them drifting round corners with a nice dust cloud behind, make it a bit hard to argue that they are any different from rally cars when running on CAT1 roads.

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Songasport
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Songasport » Mon Jan 09, 2017 21:11

It's a question of damage/repair costs rather than speed. In my experience BCCC cars don't cause anything like the damage that rally cars do, hence why they were charged a lot less under the MSA/NRW agreement. Whether R4W believe that I don't know. I suspect not.

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Wirrolean2
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Wirrolean2 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 13:58

Chris G wrote:I will keep my mouth shut.

First time for everything I suppose. I just can't do it. HAHA :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

sheepie
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by sheepie » Fri Jan 20, 2017 13:14

Looking like the Cambrian may be cancelled !!!!

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Chris G
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Chris G » Fri Jan 20, 2017 17:05

sheepie wrote:Looking like the Cambrian may be cancelled !!!!
The first of many, I think.

It is obvious to me that NRW are determined to "cleanse" the forests of cars.
Chris Gibson.

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Songasport
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Re: Welsh forestry charges 2017

Post by Songasport » Fri Jan 20, 2017 18:13

The Cambrian is going ahead apparently but with a change of route - more work and stress for the volunteer organisers.

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